This website is a sad shadow of its former self

I remember when I used to come to MyDD for really wonky inside baseball.  Unfortunately, the commenters on this site have turned this into a truly unpleasant place to visit. And that is too bad.

Jerome, please get a hold of this problem.  Disable comments for a while, eject the worst offenders.  

The internecine childishness has got to stop.  I'm tired of campaign press releases titled as diaries.  I'm tired of the egregious violations of copyright as people post whole articles written by others, with the only original content being "OOO- BREAKING, Edwards in trouble!"

It's really sad.  The diary content of the frontpagers is good.  The recommended diaries, however, are laughable, and the comments are pathetic.

Please someone, get hold of the problem, before this very valuable resource gets destroyed.

meta off

[update] Just to be clear - this is not meant to be a criticism of Jerome Armstrong. It's directed at the comments.[update]

Display:


Sorry, but it's true (2.00 / 8)

it's like a sports message board in here.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:21:05 PM EST

Re: Sorry, but it's true (2.00 / 2)

I'm praying for some relief.

It's out of control and very sad to see.
BTW, you self-hating naderites are brining the democratic party down with your persistent complaining, grow a backbone!

(I hope they will not come if they see that others have gotten here first with the insults.)


by MrMacMan on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:28:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, but it's true (2.00 / 2)

DrFrank, I have seen you give out some of the most bizarre troll ratings ever.  You might not like the debate, but you seem to be part of the problem.
It kind of sucks that you can't control the site, but maybe you should start your own.
DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:41:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have my own (2.00 / 6)

thanks.

You are among the worst offenders.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, but it's true (2.00 / 7)

Yeah, and I'm not a sports fan.  Totally agree with your complaint and wonder where this is all headed besides nowhere worth being.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:50:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, but it's true (2.00 / 6)

It's amazing how fast it's gotten really really dumb.


by adamterando on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, but it's true (none / 0)

I hope it will improve once the primaries are over.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

sad shadow of its former self (2.00 / 3)

They get banned and come back with new user names.  Holden Caulfeld, for example, was Dem Dem (who has all those hidden comments) and is back again flaunting the fact that he was someone else.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:32:42 PM EST

Re: sad shadow of its former self (2.00 / 1)

well he didn't even come out and say it himself, I had to link his usernames together and then he finally accepted it and told people.

He's even using both names at the same time.


by MrMacMan on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:38:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that's sock puppetry (2.00 / 2)

it's bannable.

one down, TeresainPA and areyouready to go.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's sock puppetry (none / 0)

on what grounds DrFrank?  What exactly is the thrill you get out of controlling who comments here?  Or are you just bitter that Clinton is kicking the ass of your candidate? = )


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's sock puppetry (none / 0)

Probably because you bring nothing to the table, to the site or to the discussion.  Most of us are dumber for having read your comments.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:36:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

just what does the 1st amendment (1.00 / 1)

of our bill of rights mean to you?

I disagree with much of the crap written here and HATE that I have to fight these bogus charges of Clinton corruption....but I would never want to EVER - EVER -EVER ban a fellow Democrat from saying their piece.

Why dont ya just lay off that childish obsession to control what others think, say and speak.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: just what does the 1st amendment (2.00 / 1)

The first amendment has nothing to do with how websites operate.

Rules are Posted on the About MyDD page:
http://www.mydd.com/about

If you break those rules, you could face the consequences, sometimes thats a ban.

Again, the 1st amendment has restrictions and has no part in discussion about how you broke the rules.


by MrMacMan on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:01:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

guess what? (1.33 / 3)

I dont believe you.  Its obvious that many here and at Kos try to use these sites to ban others who dont agree with their points of view.

pretend as you wish, but everyone knows this

Plus, rules boy, isnt it against the law to post diaries that are attack pieces on members of this community

Like you did last night towards me

Though, personally, I couldnt care less.

Just wanted to point out that once again - hypocrisy rises its head here at myDD


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: guess what? (none / 0)

I didn't mean to attack you, (I'm not entirely sure I did, I actually just linked to a few of your posts on separate usernames)
i just found it strange that holden called people naderites, and dem dem called people naderites, and a few other people called people naderites, that's what i said.
by MrMacMan on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well, if thats an apology... (none / 0)

its happily accepted.

I just felt like being holden - and i couldnt sign in as dem dem - nothing more.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:29:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: guess what? (none / 0)

Um its a private enterprise.  The first amendment HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.  Educate yourself a little bit before making those kind of comments.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: just what does the 1st amendment (2.00 / 1)

Well, since I have read the First Amendment, I can answer this one:

CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now, please point out to me where I have asked Congress to pass a law preventing you from speaking.

Thanks for revealing the intellectual depth behind the rest of your posts.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: just what does the 1st amendment (none / 0)

Maybe you should come back as Dumb Dumb instead of Dem Dem.  

I believe in freedom of speech but have no respect for those who resort to different aliases. I hope Holden Caulfield is your real name since you like to challenge people like me to duels.


by Pravin on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 01:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: just what does the 1st amendment (none / 0)

That's a joke right?  I assume you know where the trolls name comes from... Salinger would be disgusted.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: just what does the 1st amendment (none / 0)

Never read Catcher in the Rye. The character is from that, right?  I was being sarcastic because this guy keeps calling other people out and claims he knows this person but never reveals his identity.


by Pravin on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:49:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have twice now had angry morrons like you (none / 0)

google bomb my real name because they take offense because I call them out for false attacks on our leading dems and dont let them skulk away as hidden naderites...one I had to sick a frigging lawyer on.

And I dont say I know Bower, I met him at a drinking liberally event in Philly and then just ignored him.  In real politics, he is about sixteen levels down from the big boys.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 12:09:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he lies (none / 0)

the day I decided to change my name - cause i wanted to and it was available - i wrote it up right here and then for a week had - the tag "the artist formerly known as dem dem" up until I found the fun one I use now - he lies and slanders - what a shock from a confirmed naderite


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 12:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

witty come back ....not! (none / 0)

You lie about my name.  I have pointed this out but you still lie, lie, lie

i wasnt banned you chump and I havent posted another word under dem dem since i became holden - the phonies fighter.

explain that away mumnuts!

the day I decided to change my name - cause i wanted to and it was available - i wrote it up right here and explained...then for a week had - the tag "the artist formerly known as dem dem" up until I found the fun one I use now - he lies and slanders - what a shock from a confirmed naderite

you nerds and your sockpuppets...who the heck would care to write here twice as much as they already are?

oh - you lying nerd naderites - thats who!


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 12:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad shadow of its former self (2.00 / 1)

First, he claimed he had forgotten Dem Dem's login information - which is a legitimate reason for starting another account (although there is a useful system called "retrieve username and password") on this site...

But then, somewhat incredulously, he responded to his own diary by Holden, with Dem Dem.  Then, he didn't stop using Holden, but started commenting again with him.

So I'm really puzzled as to what's going on...


I don't care who's the nominee. I'm voting Democratic.
by JWR on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:43:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Really (2.00 / 2)

You're too nice about the FP stuff. Since when was that a space for rah-rah diaries for candidates. I get they are doing rotating puff pieces, but its just stupid in practice.

Yes, the loss of the old team to Open Left, etc...was devastating for this site. I used to come here for the signal/noice ratio over DKos. Now sadly, I think even DKos has better signal.


by ElitistJohn on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 08:59:18 PM EST

I don't think that's it (2.00 / 2)

Matt Stoller, while brilliant, used to get a bit unhinged.  I'm not sure the place is worse for his absence.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

brilliant?! (none / 0)

it seems that you DO understand sarcasm!


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think that's it (none / 0)

Sheesh. This thread is a demonstration of what a sad state this site has hit. What a useless collection of ad hominem insults.


by ElitistJohn on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:00:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think that's it (2.00 / 1)

I miss Bowers and Stoller a lot.  I like Matt's posts.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:48:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I betcha this is from the strategy session Vox Populi called together via email.  Daily complain diaries "What happened to this site."   Way too transparent, kids.

For the record, like Pope Jeremy, who had zero redeeming value, I don't recall a single interesting diary from this poster here.  Does anyone remember any diaries written that added a lot of substance to this site?  I sure would like to see those diaries that would make me feel that this poster is anything different from what he describes here from others.    Maybe I missed them, but all I have seen all year from this particular poster DrFrankLives are combative posts, in many cases downright trolling.    Am i missing something here, or are the wrong people writing these types of "What is happening to this site" diaries (in other words, the very people who don't add much substance to this site in the first place?)

Again, no doubt this is a result of the strategic session Vox Populi called, so this diary, as transparent as it is in its intent, belongs on the trash heap.  Just my opinion.  


by georgep on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:10:45 PM EST

Um no. I have a job. (2.00 / 3)

I don't do blogger conference calls.

I've been here since before you could type.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why do you feel you need to defend them? (2.00 / 2)

I never mentioned you.  In fact I didn't have you in mind at all.  I often disagree with you, but at least you indicate some thought in your posts.

There are those here who just trash people. They add little of value.  I troll rate them because they either (1) lie or (2) add no value.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:13:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do you feel you need to defend them? (none / 0)

I see posts from posters who I have (over time)  categorized in the same area that you obviously have done with "them" which whine about "what has become of this site"?   How would YOU respond if you saw such hilarity?  I almost fell off my chair when I saw Pope Jeremy, who is one of the worst trolls this site has ever seen, issued his "Dear John letter."  

I have nothing against you personally, DrFrankLives, but, speaking for myself, I have simply not seen much substance.  And, this is your VERY FIRST diary on this site.  EVER.   Where are the  posts that are anything but either nods of agreement or bashes of disagreement?   I don't see your civilized style of writing when you constantly call others moron, liars, etc.  (yes, I have gone through your post history a little, not pretty.)


by georgep on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do you feel you need to defend them? (none / 0)

this is not my very first diary.  they roll off over time.  I havent posted one on here in a while, though.  Frankly, because it's gone downhill.

Don't make accusations you can;t support.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:40:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do you feel you need to defend them? (none / 0)

I have been here for quite some time.  Longer than 85% of the commenters in this diary and most diaries.  I read here every day.   I don't recall a SINGLE diary from you.  So, it has gone downhill for how long?  

I have sympathy for anyone's concerns and "issues," but I must say that it has now become ridiculous with many of the haters here.  If this is not a strategy thing with Vox, then this is just another very weak diary.  Congrats on getting it onto the Recommended list, though.  It shows how many "concerned" writers this site has, which is very valuable indeed.  


by georgep on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:48:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In 2004 (2.00 / 2)

On this blog and DailyKos, I posted the diary that pushed Eminem's anti-bush music video to number one on MTV in the week before the election.

What did you do?


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:16:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

now youre messing with irony (none / 0)

right?

And that stuff sure DOES go over ny head, I guess you are way smarter then us regular folks.

That and youre bein' here before "others could type"...

Man, that really is impressive..

te,he...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In 2004 (none / 0)

The millions of kids watching TRL pushed it to the top, but fashioning oneself a pop culture Kingmaker can be fun, so knock yourself out.


by OfficeOfLife on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In 2004 (none / 0)

http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/10/26/144 113/09

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/25 195643/30

Um... No credit for me here? (3.33 / 3)
Hate to be a cry baby about this, but if this gets freeped onto TRL, that was MY idea!
JRE 2008
The Presidency is NOT a family heirloom!

by DrFrankLives on Tue Oct 26, 2004 at 03:10:24 PM EDT

Um... No credit for me here? by DrFrankLives, Tue Oct 26, 2004 at 03:10:24 PM EDT (3.33 / 3)
 credit ( / -1)
kid oakland.....<credit>.....dr. frank lives

k/o: politics and culture

by kid oakland on Tue Oct 26, 2004 at 03:19:40 PM EDT

[ Parent ]

credit by kid oakland, Tue Oct 26, 2004 at 03:19:40 PM EDT ( -1)
 Of course you get credit ( / -1)
We all know it was DrFrankLives who originally posted the idea. I threw your links into this comment thread, and Kos posted them in the header. But if it makes it onto TRL it will be all because you started it off.
Thanks!

by existenz on Tue Oct 26, 2004 at 04:23:15 PM EDT

[ Parent ]


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In 2004 (none / 0)

wait are u seriously suggesting that you were the cause of Eminem's single becoming number one before the election?

Were you also a disgruntled youth before that election? Because disgruntled suburban youth and urban youth + teenage girls who thought he was hot (and teenage gay boys) were the ones that brought Eminem to the top as well as Dr. Dre.

Wait... are you Dr. Dre!


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 09:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In 2004 (none / 0)

No - I'm saying that DailyKos and MyDd freeped that video to the top of that show.  You asked me for something constructive that I did, and I pointed it out.


by DrFrankLives on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 10:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In 2004 (none / 0)

If everybody who commented in and recced those threads voted 10 times apiece it would be <1% of a daily TRL vote tally. At least you are not lacking in self image, and for that, good on ya.

Eminem happens to be one of the biggest music stars in the world and really never needed any help catapulting his new work to #1 during those peak years.


by OfficeOfLife on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 1)

You give me too much credit.  There has been no strategy session.  Paranoid much?


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Sure, Vox.  I am just making it all up, the diary in which you promised to "take MyDD back" after communicating with posters via email (at least 15 responded that they sent you an email, btw.)  

Actually, it is this kind of crap that is bringing discourse on this site down, but that seems to be a goal here.      


by georgep on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:42:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've never spoken to or heard from Vox P (none / 0)

in my life.  for the record.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Uh, I don't think so.

In my opinion, the diarist is 100% correct, and I don't think it's a close question.

The candidate diaries on the front page are an excellent example of how people can make positive contributions to both the site and their candidate of choice.

Sadly, the signal to noise ratio is horrible.  And the Hillary supporters, taken as a whole, are just as much to blame as the anti-Hillary types.  Both groups have members who deserve a perma-ban.

How many of the pro-Hillary posts on this site do you think Hillary would be happy about, if she were to read them?  How many of the anti-Hillary diaries would Obama or Edwards be happy about?  The haters hurt the site, they hurt their own candidates, and they bring nothing to the table.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 10:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I don't disagree, Steve.  It is on BOTH sides.  But that is the problem here.  The DIARIST is as much to blame as anyone, yet he is here writing this diary?  Look through his history.  I can't count how many times he bashed people with "moron," "liar," etc.  And that was WELL before areyouready or any of the others showed up here.  Why should I then take him talking about OTHERS seriously?    When Jeremiahthemessiah posted a similar diary I showed him the incredibly trashy attacks that are coming from the anti-Hillary types as a means to point out how one-sided and ultimately hypocritical these diaries are.  Why are those people not taken to task?  Often they receive mojos instead, are agreed with, even though the exact same kind of attack begets a major uproar when it comes from the other side.

 If any of these people want to be taken seriously, they HAVE to ask "their own" to shape up, let alone the awkwardness of the rabid haters WRITING diaries "What happened to this site?"   I mean, would you not laugh out loud if you saw AnneFrank write such a diary?  Or OE?  

I agree that the haters bring nothing to the table.  But it is as much from their side.  There was a time when I was attacked daily, asked to leave, asked to buzz off, asked whether I work for the campaign and accused of being a shill, paid worker, Wolfson-Penn-Rove, etc. (that still happens) because I don't swim with the echo-chamber that had developed here.  But, I have a pretty thickly skin.  I stand my ground, don't generally resort to name calling in face of being called names.  But, from my perspective things were wORSE around here then.  If you did not  believe in a certain POV you were automatically someone to attack, someone to throw epithets and major insults at.  It was the worst type of echo-chamber imaginable.  Yes, the talk was "deep" as it centered mostly around how wrong Clinton is for America, and the many ways to explain exactly why, how bad Bill Clinton was for the party, etc.   Now that it is different we just have to get used to getting along under different circumstances.  Gratuitous anti-candidate diaries won't just be accepted as the norm and "discussed" between the chamberists, there will be some voicing of opposing opinions.  It is just the way it is now, and that won't change back anymore.   These diaries don't help a bit.  I think they actually hurt the cause.  What would help would be for a concerted effort to write detailed, deep and informative diaries.  Interesting stuff, that while coming from a diarist who may not support my candidate still is written in such a way as to create discussion across candidate-lines.  That is the way to do it.  Not by writing daily diaries about the "site" and how much better dkos and openleft are.  Not by writing such diaries, then turning around and writing "trash for discussion" (like Hookers for Hillary) as a shining example of what exactly it is we are supposed to be striving for?    


by georgep on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:45:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hookers for jillary (none / 0)

was even worse then it sounded.

Trippi and Gibbs and their campaigns are responsible for this.

they have made it clear that calling the Clintons corrupt is IN BOUNDS.

So when i come back at these people hard, they are shocked!...amd threaten to ban me etc...

I want to be shocking....these people need a jolt to understand just how awful and dangerous these bs charges are.

its quite crazy.  Ive worked in politics in DC for a long time now.  A bunch of it - fighting the msn - gop coup attempt stuff.  And to now see these same charges being used by two guys who Ive never really respected - against our ex President and our leading candidate?

Jeeze.  They are painting themselves into a corner.  If you say, accept and believe that the Clintons are corrupt...what do these people doe WHEN (not if) Hillary is our nominee?  Thats why I make a big point of Naderism, because there will be a big pull in that direction....cause George ...he's running and he will be the green party nominee Id bet.

Is this site gonna be full of naderites bashing hillary through feb - and then abandoning the dems when she wins?

This is the risk


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:06:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 1)

I always hated those anti-Hillary discussions back in the day, and I probably ignored 80% of them and criticized the haters in 20% of them.  But the thing is, they weren't the entirety of the site's content.  You could skip them and there was still worthwhile stuff here.  Now it's hard to open any diary at all without reading about how Hillary is a Repug or Obama is desperate or Edwards is the Breck girl.

Primary season has always sucked at this site but oy, this time it's managed to outsuck itself.

I do think it's been useful for the Hillary haters to get a sense that wow, there are some real people out there, normal people, who simply like Hillary and think she'd be a good President.  Hanging out with their colleagues in the blogosphere, they'd simply never met such people.  That's an asset you bring to the site, and some others do as well, but I wonder how much of it gets ruined by areyouready and company who make it look like Hillary supporters are a bunch of nasty freaks.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:15:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

The problem is that diaries like this here solve nothing and make things worse.  I look at the diarists history and see just another hater.  He obviously thinks he is absolutely justified with the insults, which is the problem in a nutshell.  What effect can a diary from someone with a history of insults and candidate-hating truly have?  Other than getting a bunch of "his" to agree with him and build up even more of this "they are our enemy" picture we should be striving to get rid of?   At any point myself or others (like hwc for instance) could have written some whiny diary "What is WRONG with this site?  This site sucks big time.  NOBODY outside your point of view is accepted?  I thought we are all Democrats?  Now those who are not YOUR type of Democrats are considered the worst scum?"  bla bla bla.   For what?  I mostly ignored the spewed hate, downrated the most excessive posters, you say your piece and move on.  

I predicted a long time ago that as Clinton moves closer and closer to the nomination, many posters who have been extremely harsh on her would pout and disappear from here.  This site will by necessity and also conviction (you will see a lot of conversions) become a major Clinton supporter site.  I just see these diaries usually from those who hated on her the MOST, so this is a somewhat expected development.   As you know, many are consumed with intense dislike for the candidate, so this site may not be as receptive to that as it used to be.  They may move to a site like openleft, where they can discuss (without interruption) the many reasons why polls are meaningless, why Clinton's support is shallow, etc.  That is until the Bowers and Stoller's of the world get a little too "Hey, it's most likely over, guys"-centric for them, at which case they'll accuse Bowers and Stoller of being in Clinton's backpocket (happened here numerous times right before they left) and move on to sites that are more receptive....until the election, after which the entire blogosphere jumps enthusiastically on Clinton's bandwaggon (my prediction) and those with the most dislike will either find a way to convert or will be trying to talk up Nader or Bloomberg, which will then lead to yet ANOTHER interesting dynamic on this and other sites.    


by georgep on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Until I see more of the Clinton supporters start to take the high road I'm not going to be particularly sympathetic.

You'd think that with her chances for the nomination looking better and better, her supporters would start to demonstrate a little capacity to rise above it all and thank the other contenders for playing.  Instead, every day it's nonstop attacks on Obama (who obviously could be Presidential material down the road) and Edwards as horrible human beings who have absolutely nothing going for him.

There seems to be a bit of a tribal mentality that prevents the mature Clinton supporters like yourself from condemning the bad ones, because the supporters of the other candidates seem just as bad to you.  I'm telling you, nothing gets fixed if that's the mentality.  Ditch the haters so the rest of you aren't undermined in your efforts to be good ambassadors for Hillary.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 08:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I think the rules are simple, and, if abided by, should suffice.  

1. Candidates are fair game.

2. Attacking other posters is not allowed.  "Attack" the post itself, not the poster.

3. Ratings abuse is not allowed.

Now, I agree that hit-diaries are not useful, (even though candidates are fair game) and that goes for those that hit Obama with something lame or juvenile as well as Edwards and Clinton.  Where do you draw the line, though?  Areyouready's diary about Edwards' bundler would invariably be seen as a hit-diary while the same does not apply the other way.  Then we have "Hookers for Hillary," total trash, untimely (the "endorsement" happened a long time ago) and just meant to inflame.  Aside from yourself I have not seen a single poster condemn that diary (who is not a Clinton-supporter.)   There is a problem here that definitely has to do with a double-standard.  I don't know what the solution is.  I go back to the 3 rules atop and believe that if everybody abides by those rules, we should be fine.  I am not sure if you read all diaries, but I have been probably more vocal about "chiding" Hillary supporters when I see them go overboard than most.  I also sided with Vox Populi (despite his current behavior) when he zero-rated a post and another poster complained, as I believe that that is absolutely justified if someone uses the f-bomb against another poster in anger (as had happened there.)  

Let's all take a deep breath, trust that Todd will check posts for content for a while and not hesitate to ban if someone attacks someone else with "Monkey boy" or "flipping moron" and hopefully that will do the trick.    


by georgep on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 09:23:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

The problem with the "candidates are fair game" principle is that I really don't want to read a bunch of Breck Girl crap.  I think there's clearly a line in this regard.

I'm also tired of seeing stuff from the likes of the Washington Times reprinted just because it happens to attack someone else's candidate.  I believe in a sort of Golden Rule: unless you actually believe in the substance of an attack, such that you'd criticize your own candidate if they were the one to do it, you shouldn't be republishing people's attacks just to score points.  Unfortunately, not everyone is objective enough to apply this rule to themselves.

I think ratings abuse has to be self-policing, just by its very nature.  I think the site administrators have enough work on their hands without getting involved in ratings issues as well.  Most comments that get an undeserved 0 or 1 get uprated by others, which is how the system is designed to work.

Finally, we really need to do something about the comment spam.  The way to respond to an anti-Hillary diary is not by posting 20 different polls in the comments showing Hillary ahead in Utah, or whatever.  It's easy to see which people are responsible for consistently taking the discussion off-track.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 10:16:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Well, yes, candidates are fair game when it comes to issues, but the hit-diaries are not in that category.  I just don't see how those hit-diaries can be stopped.   The best one can do is not recommend obvious hit diaries, so they eventually just fall off, but the numbers here are such that hit-diaries aimed at Clinton usually get lots of recommends (even though they lack substance or diary depth.)  Then you have a retaliation of sorts.  It can only be changed if all participate.    

Right-wing framing should be an absolute no-no.  I really don't CARE what Karl Rove or Rush Limbaugh has to say about any of our candidates.  Yet, we had seen how many diaries on that?    Why should that even make us like one of our candidates less anyway?  

I agree on the ratings abuse issue, although I have never upraded a comment that was not truly a troll, but perhaps combative.  I usually reserve the 2s for very good comments that I wholeheartedly agree with.  In that sense perhaps the interim ratings system the admins had come up with here was a bit better for that purpose.  I believe it was

0 - troll
1 - rescue
2 - mojo


by georgep on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 10:35:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

George I certainly respect you. But I do think the diarist and others have a point when it comes to the  incivility of others. Some of the comments from Hillary supporters in this diary are ridiculous. What I would like to see is an evenhanded approach to all of this where when something crosses the line we all point it out regardless of which candidate the person supports. The problem is that there are double, even triple standards in play and that makes it difficult to accept the credibility of what anyone says. I have been guilty of attacking others in the past. But I realized that doing so wasn't good for me, this site or the discussion in general. So I am looking at things from a different perspective. Hell, just disagreeing with anything Hillary does or says brings condemnation and insult. How frickin ridiculous is that? And I will say without exaggeration that Hillary supporters do not want to attack me. It will be a huge mistake. I see way too many political operatives making their on message points here and not enough of genuine American citizens actually debating the issues and helping our democracy progress.


by DoIT on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 04:07:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll Second That (none / 0)


I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

I might add your right to say it without being vilified, insulted or demeaned.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 04:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Actually No.  Nothing has been done with that yet.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:51:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This website is a sad shadow of its former sel (2.00 / 2)

content of the frontpagers is good

The front page has been really good. There have been some wonderful diaries as well. As for the freaky side show, moderation is not a good thing. Maybe limiting comments per day would cut down on the noise.


Dare to be free.
by misscee on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:20:46 PM EST

Re: This website is a sad shadow of its former sel (2.00 / 1)

For Clinton supporters there is a lot of reasonably interesting analysis, and very wonky inside baseball, in the diaries, even from areyouready. The problem is that unless you are interested in discussing how the Clinton campaign is positioning itself for the general there is not much interesting to say. No campaign shows any sign of challenging the dominance of the Clinton campaign and all her numbers are doing is going up. The last desperate hope of the anti-Clinton people and the supporters of other candidates is that a stumble in Iowa will wipe out her advantage everywhere else.

Obviously this is very difficult to swallow for someone who said of Edwards versus Clinton, in late 2004: "He'll clean her clock." So you are reduced to writing meta diaries. Or you could go to openleft and watch Chris and Matt go through their stages of grief. It might be more entertaining to watch the diary section of Daily Kos descend into madness as Markos migrates to Clinton.


by souvarine on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:21:59 PM EST

I repeat (2.00 / 4)

Nobody has voted yet.

Funny how the Clinton campaign wants this to be over before anyone votes.

And Chris is an absolute opponent of Edwards.  What have you people been reading?


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry - Matt, not Chris (2.00 / 1)


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:24:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stoller doesnt like anybody but (2.00 / 1)

Stoller


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I repeat (none / 0)

No, no one has voted yet, but neither has anyone here proposed any coherent theory of how another candidate will overtake her. All we get are smear attempts and BDM yelling "no one decides until the last week!" over and over again. I would love to see a diary on a credible strategy for someone to beat Clinton, but most of her opponents here are too blind to her strengths and their own candidate's weaknesses to write one. BTD's diaries are interesting because he admits Dodd has little chance but is willing to speculate about how he could turn things around.

As for Chris and Matt, I don't know that they like any candidate, but I do know that they don't want Clinton to be the nominee. However even they are becoming reconciled to the idea.

Lastly, to george, I don't know when Markos will come around, but I'm pretty sure Clinton will win and I'm dead certain he will support the nominee.


by souvarine on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 10:12:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards beats her in Iowa, handily (none / 0)

SEIU carries him in Nevada.

And he does better than expected in New Hampshire.

Obama finishes third in Iowa and NH.

Edwards wins SC.

It's all over but the shouting at that point.

Does it require him to draw to an inside straight?  Well, it might, but all he has to do is maintain his organization in Iowa, and change 10,000 minds in New Hampshire.

South Carolina will take care of itself when the time comes.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 10:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I repeat (none / 0)

I'm inclined to agree with you, souvarine.  Instead of thoughtful analysis or viable criticisms, we get an awful lot of "Hillary Hearts Hookers" diaries, or whatever the title of that thing was.  To be sure, there are plenty of Clinton supporters here who are just as guilty of this kind of nonsense, but it seems to me that this particular diary has a rotten smell to it.  Look at the comments carefully, and pay special attention to the ratings.  Notice any patterns?

I can't say I blame anyone for thinking this diary is an organized attempt by some people to take control of this venue.  How many diaries can you find on MyDD where so much mojo is given to the same few people, and where another few people are given so many troll ratings, over and over?

That said, I also agree with Steve when he says that this site is prone to hysterical yelling and name calling. Certainly, there are good, substantive diaries from all sides occasionally, but an awful lot of them are absolute trash. I try hard not be a part of that, and I do my best to up-rate comments that I think have been unfairly troll-rated, but sometimes I think I'm fighting a losing battle.  I continue to come here because the community is relatively small, and it is possible sometimes to have a civilized discussion.

However, some of those who complain about how far this site has fallen are also among those who are responsible for its fall.  Of course, they don't see it that way, but it seems quite clear to me.

It would be great if the administrators took a more active role in managing the site, or perhaps appointed a few trusted users to do it for them.  I think that would restore order in a relatively short time.


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I repeat (none / 0)

I think there are definitely some people who complain when they're also part of the problem, and maybe their complaints are "strategically" aimed at silencing certain people or factions, I don't know.

But in the final analysis, the complaint about the site is legitimate, and that's all I care about.  I don't have the patience to try and sort out the legitimately concerned folks from the strategically complaining folks, it really doesn't matter in the end.

Without some sort of policing I don't know how long this can go on.  Heck, even Markos bans people for going way over the line, and his site is a zillion times as busy.  What's odd about this site these days is that the front pagers keep writing one worthwhile and substantive diary after another, day after day, and appear completely oblivious to the fact that almost everything outside of the front page is full of juvenile rantings.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I repeat (none / 0)

I think that's part of what frustrates me so much about many hillary supporters. I used to like Mydd because in addition to inside baseball stuff, there was also a lot of policy discussion. But Hillary types only seem to be concerned about the same thing as the media. Namely, process stuff about how someone is or isn't going to win rather than should someone win or what a person's presidency will mean for the country.


by adamterando on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:41:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I repeat (none / 0)

alegre does a pretty good job covering what kind of president Hillary Clinton would be, as do georgep and hwc in their front page diaries. I personally think most of our candidates would be excellent presidents in different ways, I just think Hillary is the best of a good field.

I've never thought of MyDD as much of a policy site, I just sampled the past two year's front page diaries to refresh my memory. Even the ostensibly policy diaries are about the political implications of the policy, things like 'gay rights are important because Howard Dean relied on gays...'. I go to TPM, TAPPED and the WashingtonMonthly for policy. Even DailyKos has the occasional gem of a policy diary.

I'm more interested in how candidates are communicating their policies to the public, who is communicating them most effectively, and how the public is reacting. The candidate who is getting through to people and persuading them is, to my mind, the one most likely to successfully implement Democratic policies.


by souvarine on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:58:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I repeat (none / 0)

I didn't express myself well.

What I mean is a discussion of ideology. Not so much policy discussions. Policy then enters into the debate because ideology is manifested through policy proposals.
 


by adamterando on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I repeat (none / 0)

I've seen good policy discussions from the Hillary supporters.  Bookgrl has a nice diary right now on the health care plan.  Heck, I even remember areyouready posting a policy diary once.  The problem isn't entirely one-sided here; I'm sure you can think of countless examples where the policy discussion from the anti-Hillary side has been "sure, Hillary's policy is good, she stole it from Edwards."


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 08:49:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This website is a sad shadow of its former sel (none / 0)

"It might be more entertaining to watch the diary section of Daily Kos descend into madness as Markos migrates to Clinton."

Really?  I thought he was going to come to his senses eventually.   :-)


by georgep on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This website is a sad shadow of its former sel (none / 0)

It's clear Markos will support whoever the nominee is, and I think we all know how that is looking.

Doing anything else would run contrary to his entire philosophy, at this juncture.

Not that I expect him to turn into a sycophant, but I expect him to keep his eye firmly on the ball: the Republican candidate will be way, way worse for the country than our nominee, that's a guarantee.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:22:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This website is a sad shadow of its former sel (2.00 / 3)

Well, sadly, the problem isn't the content it is the lack of it, and the style which has become combative to the point of uselessness.  And it is a big stretch, I reckon, to suggest Hillary's inevitability as the causal factor.  We have been reduced to sloganeering and bumper sticker rhetoric repeated ad nauseum and any dissenting opinion is likely to be responded to with personal attacks.  It is only a few, on both sides I might add, but it is too many.  It just isn't sustainable and the disturbing thing is that I wonder if that was the intention.  That would be a shame.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:33:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its starts Shaun (none / 0)

whenever anyone attacks the ethic of one of our candidates and charges that they and their actions are corrupted.

Personally, I blame this solely on the shoulders of the comm aides for Obama (Gibbs) and Edwards (Trippi).

because of these flawed fellows and their attacks, this campaign has started in the gutter and has stayed there.

When gave you heard team Clinton attack the ethics of another campaign or charge that they are corrupt.

I would never attack another dem for promoting their fave's policy proposals, but its always about how Hillary and her supporters are corporate whores and sell outs/  Well, Im not and it offends me to be portrayed that way.  Plus, I know Mrs. clinton, I know what she has done and suffered to be a leader in our Party (remember the 90s folks) and I( take great umbrage at those that go to slime her reputation.  Part of the reason that we have to constantly report and repeat how popular she is with nationwide dems is to show how far outside the Party mainstream these attacks really are.

I wish that people here would spend i/20 the time that they do writing Hillary hating tracks - writing pro policy pieces or do research on our real opponents...Thompson, Rudy, McCain etc...

btw I still have my IWW homepage


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its starts Shaun (none / 0)

OK, I think it's fair to say you have made your point about Gibbs and Trippi, but if I want to criticise, for example, Hillary's luncheon with contributors which offered access to elected decision makers on Homeland Security just how careful do I have to be to not overstep the boundary you are patrolling so determinedly?  Can I say I think it is inappropriate?  Question the legality of it?  Or the ethics?

You don't seem inclined to pussy-foot around with your opinion, where do I have to draw the line with mine?  Personally I thought the whole caper was awful and it is just the kind of thing I dislike about her.  Maybe I've got it all wrong but the credibility of some of her supporters is so questionable, to me, that I don't feel I can have a meaningful discussion about it with them.  How about you?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nah - not yet (none / 0)

heres the deal

The problem is just like when the GOP went after Clinton with sex, they cdouldnt beat him any other way, so they swang for the fences and tried to dirty him with the same sex stuff that theyd been doing too.

What happened - yes clinton was slimed and tarnished forever with a 1/3 of the amer people but - two republican speakers had to quit.

Now, Edwards, trippi, Obama, Axelrod and Gibbs are now all crying that Hillary is corrupted by lobbyists.  And of course, this sounds reasonable and awfulk to all the people who have never worked in politics in DC.  All these guys have and they know what they are saying is bs.  I know these cats.  I know theor fundraisers.  *I know who and how they have raised money this cycle.  Obama has vacummed money up and down from k street.  he just wont take monet from "registered' lobbyists.  Big deal.  First, one doesnt register to lobby the wh or the govt - just the congress.  Two - the big guys, the Tommy Boggs and Vernon Jordans, these guys arent registered lobbyists, its the lil guys who are.  these are distinctions without a difference.  They are both (Edwards not as much right now because no one thinks he has a future, let alone a chance)have raised money from the insiders of insiders.  Hell, edwards flies the country in a private jet owned by a trial lawyer who has bragged about owning the dem senate.  Obama and rezko is a very disturbing story about chicago and big money corruption in low income housing.  But since the natl media isnt paying attention (as yet, wait until feb when pat fitzgerald tries him) Obamas folks are going for the long bomb...use the right wing slimes about the clintons that the media loves to try to stop clinton.  Lucky for them this Hsu story was sitting there.  unlucky for them is still doesnt seem to be hurting her.

The problem with criticizing the event in DC today is that it does attack exactly how the system works.  There are events like this 20 times a day in Dc.  exactly like this, every day/  But Trippi makes it seem like its a special event, something dark and hidden.  Its the system, attack the system, fight for federal funding of elections - im with ya.  But, we CAnnot unilaterally disarm WHEN WE ARE ABOUT TO GO TO BATTLE WITH THE gop hun.

I am glad these companies are giving to us.  this is new.  They are giving because not only can we win, but because they respect some of our people too.  Like sestak.  

For short term (well, actually no term - just a story in the nyt)trippi has slandered Sestak, Hillary and our entire party because we were going to have a fundraising luncheon with defence reps.  Its not only misleading and deceptive, it hurts our own interests.  And I dont just mean our electoral chances.

I remember in 93, that the whole state of CA was in complete reception and it was the Clinton admin and Alice rivlin at OMB and Dr Brown, then under sec at def, who worked with the big defense companies on dual use technologies that kept those factories open, those people working there employed and kept CA out of breakdown and outright economic depression.  

Its a complicated thing running this whole vast wide and involved nation.  Simple answers are often short sighted.  Short sighted answers are often simple minded.  Trippi understands about half of what he is doiung here.  But he really doesnt care.  he's set.  he's got his multi million dollar house.  His weekend retreat and his msnbc contract.   he is faking this story.  He is being a phony.  

Im sick of these folks doing this.  but I expect it to continue and we'll have to deal with their childish mess, when they all go home - and dont come back to help us.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 10:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nah - not yet (none / 0)

I was looking for a simple answer to my question about how far I have to self-censor my comments to achieve an appropriate balance between party solidarity and calling foul on something which I think is questionable and unnecessary on the part of a candidate.  Your point seems to be that they are hypocrites for criticising her, you make the comment There are events like this 20 times a day in DC and I assume you mean the campaigns of Edwards and Obama are doing the same thing.  Well, you need to put your money where your mouse is and provide evidence of that.  It would blow Edwards out of the water if you could.  Provide a link, that would shut up the criticism pretty quickly.  I don't buy it, personally.

Who is the us in I am glad these companies are giving to us.  The DNC?  The party?  Or is it Hillary's campaign who is the us in that sentence.  At this stage she is simply another candidate in the primary and I think it is fair that she bear the scrutiny that might make a distinction between her and her opponents.  You talk about her as if she was already the leader of the party and it just ain't so.

So how much self-censorship do I have to do to support my candidate and my wing of the party?  I think what she did at that luncheon was symptomatic of a kind of government, and party, which I want to oppose.  If I wanted to shut up about it or didn't care I wouldn't even be here in the first place.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nah - not yet (none / 0)

I agree with your comment in its entirety, Shaun. This purity campaign on the part of some Clinton supporters, just because Clinton is the frontrunner right now, is antithetical to free debate. This isn't DNC Chairman Howard Dean criticizing Hillary here. Most of us are just people posting their own thoughts on a website, and we should have the right to do so without people going around identifying "traitors in the ranks."  

Yes, it is a (progressive) democratic website. And after the primary is over the overwhelming majority will close ranks around the democratic nominee. But in the meantime, we shouldn't be self-censoring our comments except in the way that everyone should self-censor: by making sure we are posting well thought arguments and not juvenile rants.


by Korha on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nah - not yet (none / 0)

This purity campaign on the part of some Clinton supporters, just because Clinton is the frontrunner right now, is antithetical to free debate.

Nonsense.  There is no purity campaign, and you well know it.  Responsible Clinton supporters want exactly what responsible Edwards or Obama supporters want - reasoned debate.  you're trying to characterize this as some sort of mission by Clinton supporters to cut off debate in this forum, and that's simply not true. GeorgeP, HWC and many others (including me) have called for meaningful debate many times.  We have lambasted those people on every side who bring down the level of debate where and when ever possible.

However, that doesn't mean that we will just accept hit pieces and outright distortions like this one, which was a blatant lie.  I won't even bother with the enormous amount of ridiculous diaries about Hillary Clinton that we see every day.

Are there loud mouths on my side of this debate?  Of course there are, and we all know who they are.  But let's not try to pretend that this situation is of their making alone.  They've had plenty of help in that arena from both Edwards and Obama supporters.


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nah - not yet (none / 0)

OK, I have been basically arguing the same point for awhile.  The question is what to do about it?  Any suggestions?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:05:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We can't do anything (none / 0)

We users have no power to do anything besides troll-rate, which will of course only make the problem much worse.

Per this diary, the admins need to clean house. But I doubt they will. After the primaries are over things will probable get better.


by Korha on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:11:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're right (none / 0)

There is a purity campaign by some Clinton supporters.

You're right, though. I shouldn't have singled out Clinton supporters. There are a lot of people on all sides who are at fault.


by Korha on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 12:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nah - not yet (none / 0)

For such an ardent Clinton defender, you sure seem eager to slime Obama with the Rezko story. The Chicago papers have been digging fruitlessly into the Rezko angle for months now, and have come up with nothing of substance. Pat Fitzgerald won't have any better luck, because as a honest guy he can't discover anything that doesn't exist.

If you want to disagree with me, back up your assertions with evidence and facts.


by Korha on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nah - not yet (none / 0)

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/12 4171,CST-NWS-obama05.article
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/35382 9,CST-NWS-rez23.article
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/35378 6,CST-NWS-rezquestions23.article
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/35379 7,CST-NWS-rezdavis23.article

by Korha on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its starts Shaun (none / 0)

Yes, but have you joined?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 09:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its starts Shaun (none / 0)

The 2008 democratic primary campaign is not in the gutter, this website is in the gutter. There's a big difference there.

Even ten thousand Gibbs' and Trippis (and Wolfsons) would not be an excuse for the trash you spew here on a regular basis.

P.S. You should take your own advice.


by Korha on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 10:02:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

look (none / 0)

I have only attacked those who have falsely and hypocritically attacked the Clintons for being corrupted.

Never for anything else.  

Gibbs and Trippi are leading this charge and fair people and open minded people (it seems I wouldnt include you in this group) should know and understand what these guys backgrounds are and how these other campaigns are also raising their money from fat cat, rich guy insiders.  The same exact kind of person that they attack the clintons for being close to.

its tragic that I have to do this, but its only because the hypocrisy of these attacks is so naked and false and also so obvious that many of you people dont understand these things whatsoever.

Sorry if that truth hurts.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 10:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, it's "tragic" all right (2.00 / 1)

From one of your comments in this very thread:

1. "I didnt get banned monkey boy."

2. "I know you bullies and slanderous posters (Hillary is endorsed by hookers - real nice diary - the slimiest one ever - congrats) would like to ban anyone who doesnt support their idiotic ideas."

3. "How crypto fascist of you."

4. "Then you can go over to Nader2008.org and write about what bastards those sell out democrats... and maybe write some more about porn and hookers...that seemed to excite you this morning..."

All this was in a response to a fairly innocuous comment by Vox Populi:

They get banned and come back with new user names.  Holden Caulfeld, for example, was Dem Dem (who has all those hidden comments) and is back again flaunting the fact that he was someone else.

Yes, I am aware that Vox Populi is a outspoken Hillary Hater and that he wrote a hit-piece on "Hookers for Hillary" today. This diary, however, has nothing to do with either Hillary or with Hookers. You're just randomly going around calling people you don't like "monkey boys" and "cryto fascists." That is spewing trash.

Keep in mind this is just one comment in one diary. Between this one and your dem dem account I could easily pull up a hundred more that are similarly egregious. I am somewhat sympathetic to your ends, but the way you about doing it is definitely ban-worthy. Going around calling people names and starting endless fights is exactly why this site has descended into thoughtless partisan anarchy.

You're like the guy who sees someone jaywalking across the street and in response you run the offender over with a truck. Two wrongs don't make a right.


by Korha on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:01:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

bullshit (none / 0)

I dont take threats well dearie.

I suggest you just dont read my comments - or comment to me.

I dont like people who threaten to ban others.

thats who and why I was calling someone a crypto fascist.

Did you not see  the hookers for hillary site?

i was accused by a bunch of people for doing somethin untoward because i changed my name, cause i forgot my pass word.

thats who I called monkey boy.  They too threatened to ban me.

What about freedom of speech dont you understand?

I dont need you as an ally.

i dont need you lecturing me.  I have worked full time in national politics for close to 20 years.

You and many others here dont seem to understand these things very well and still pretend that your opinions (and your attacks) are scripted in gold and complete and deep in interpretation.

Bull.  


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bullshit (none / 0)

Korha didn't actually threaten to ban you or even say she wanted you banned, she just said your comments were ban-worthy and she was technically correct although I wouldn't worry about it these days.  Nothing seems ban-worthy these days, Lord knows.

I don't want you banned either but I wish you would at least try to be remotely civil and not demonise those with whom you disagree.  But I'm not holding my breath either.